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A Proposal For "V" / "W" Issue In Kirmanjí Kurdish

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zimanzan
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One of the main differences between Kirmanjí dialects is the fate of "b", "p", "f", "m" sounds which later turn into "w/v". As a general feature, Northern Kirmanjí is apt to change em into "v" while Central and Southern dialects prefer "w". For this case I have a proposal: "v/w" from original "b/f/p/g/" be shown as "w" and "w/v" from original "m" be shown as "v":

Standard : North. : Cent.South. : Origin.

aw : av : aw : ab < ape

niwís : nivís : nús : nípís-*

bawik : bavik : bawk : pape-eke

nav : nav : naw : níyam < míyan

mévan : mévan : méwan : méhman

cev : cev, cav : caw, cew : cam < ceshmen

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Hesen
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I think, we must work

I think, we must work linguistic, and in the linguistic sight the "v"-loud in the original "b/f/p"-root is older than the "w"-loud. Like you know, Soraní, Hewramí and Southern Kurdish-speakers are not avaible to pronounce the /v/-loud, therefore all /v/-louds changed in this languages into /w/.

So, the root of "aw", "shew", "niwís", going to "av", "shev", "nivís" etc.

And I don't understand, why you ignore the Zazaki /v/-loud in the original Old-Aryan /v/-root and favor the disformed Southern Kurdish /w/-loud? Also in an older form of Kurmanjí it was as example "varan" and not "waran". And your opinion, that the /sh/ in Kelhuri "wesh" comes directly from Old Iranian is false. Kurdish itself departed itself from a Middle Iranian language, this shows also claerly the structure. So Old Iranic /j/ or /c/ changed into /jh/, so simple it is.

So the steme "vejh" were the most suitable word for Standard Kurdish "say" and "vetin" for "to say". This /jh/-loud is an Isogloss.

zimanzan
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First of all, I again ask you to read my posts carefully. Here the topic is "A Propsal For "V"/"W" Issue In Kirmanjí Kurdish". Kirmanjí Kurdish doesn't concern Zaza. When I write "Kurdish" or "Pehlewaní Kurdish" or directly "Zaza", I mean to involve Zaza. Therefore it ain't fair to bring your concerns about Zaza to this topic.

Southern and Central Kirmanjí speakers are not unable to pronounce "v": bive ~ danger, giv ~ harsh sound; weví / vewí ~ "bride", wevyetí ~ "wedding", vérr ~ "strayed; inclined"; virr ~ "fraud; deception, lie", réví ~ "fox". Kurdish people are one of rar examples of Iranian peoples who can distinguish both "v" and "w". Whilst some can only pronounce "v", such as Persians, Mazandaranis, Gilakis, Central Iranians, Talyshis, etc., and some only "w", such as Afghan Persians.

But as a matter of fact, Southern Kurds generally prefer to change original v into w; as well as the change every b, p, f, m, g to w. On the other hand we have Northern Kirmanjí speakers which almost all the original "v" have changed into either "b" (>p,f) or "g" in their dialect, and in case of changing b, p, f, m to "w/v", they mainly prefer "v". But we have significant exceptions in Northern Kirmanjí. Most Kurmanjí subdialects in Iran, Syria, and Iraq, prefer to change those sounds to "w" rather than "v, as well as they gradually change any retained ancient "v" into "w":

Subdialectal : Common Kurmanjí : Original

rawirtin : rabúrtin : fre-wí-dar

baw : bav : pape

Also some Kurmanjí varieties change "v" in "f": cef, baf, naf, heshaftin, def, etc. which confirms that Kurmanjí is apt to harden the "v/w".

Only a few examples of ancient "v" are preserved as "v" in Kurmanjí: vezí ~ elastic, from ancient "veze-" ~ "jump; swift move"; and (as Garnik A. alleges from a medieval Kurmanjí text) "vé-" ~ "without", from ancient Iranian "ví-". As I have always asserted, we must be as faithful as feasible toward the original forms. Thus for sure examples like "vezí" are the best choices, and we are not gonna adjust em to "wezí" or something.

But I believe in another term and that is to base our efforts on the existing varieties and avoid any sort of re-constructing the ancient forms which I believe would usher into an artificial result. For example we should not fool ourselves by creating "va" out of the existing forms: "wa" and "ba". But when we have these varieties: eger, ger, ege, heke, hekí, egí; we can rebuild a supposed "heker" because "-r" exists in the other varieties (< ancient "hekerte"). If a single sound exists, so we will regard it, and if it doesn't exist any more we will wish it to rest and won't make the others to scorn of us thru re-constructing the non-existing sounds.

By the way, as we all know, Northern Kirmanjí has changed most ancient "v" samples into "b", "g", etc. therefore the big deal here is to take care of "m" > "v/w" and intervocalic "-b-"/-p-" > "w/v" Thus I suggested the above terms. I repeat again, in this topic I am discussing Kirmanjí Kurdish.

I gotta say I highly regard the preservation of ancient "v" in Zaza, as well sone Goraní varieties. However Zaza dialects frequently show tendencies to change "v" > "w" or "w" > "v" (e.g. vaz- < waz-; wor < vewr), but we still can feel that the speech distinguishes the original "v" and "w". First we must standardize Kirmanjí and Zaza-Goraní (Pehlewaní) groups separately then we will deal with Proto-Kurdish form.

Apparently you are inclined to cherish this compulsive notion in your mind that nothing's gonna disprove the previous linguistic assumptions, especially those that are concerning Zaza, in any ways. For sure Kurdish and every language on this earthy globe hold a middle form as well as ancient one. But the Middle Kurdish form, which no text is remained in it, is not the same as Middle Persian or Parthian. It is fallacious to consider, what you said. I recommend you to read more stuffs about other middle Iranian languages such as Sogdian, Khotanese Scythian, or Tabari (archaic form of Mazandarani). Then you would discern that Middle Iranian is not restricted to Parthian or Middle Persian. Meantime do not be afraid of assumptions, nor consider them as unchangeable things. Just a little instance: in both celebrated Persian dictionaries, Dehkhoda and Mo'een, you will find words such as "ruc" for Middle Persian "day". It is caused by initial assumptions about Middle Persian orthography which is recorded in Aramaic letters as "lwc". It was, if I am not wrong, McKenzie that in his Pahlavi dictionary affirmed that it should not be pronounced as "ruc", but "roz". McKenzie surveyed every thing he got and reasonably concluded that the previous assumptions are wrong. An assumption is not a God talk. Every one can easily disconfirm or revise an assumption via rational reasoning.

At the end I brotherly ask you two things: if you got any reasonable ideas or information regarding to my suggesting rule, ancient "k" > Kurdish "sh", please keep me posted. And please read my writings more carefully, because I am not gonna recount em again or leave extra-commentaries on evident sentences. Thanks a lot.

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Hesen
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I see, then my proposal for

I see, then my proposal for Standard Kirmanjí Kurdish is:

ez dewejhim, min wet

(Parthian: ez vájhem, men váxt)